A video interview with KPMG's Mark Shank and Mike Wolf at DevOps World/Jenkins World 2018
Modern delivery breaks down the traditional silos that limit IT agility by integrating engineering, testing and operations into full stack teams, automating large portions of the value chain, and creating a culture of collaboration focused on customer outcomes. Watch the video or read the transcript to learn how it has become the engine that drives business transformation.
Jayne Groll: Hi, I'm Jayne Groll, CEO of the DevOps Institute here at DevOps World Jenkins World in lovely San Francisco. As you might be able to hear in the background, the buzz is palpable, and I'm really delighted to be joined by Mark and Mike of KPMG, and we're going to talk a little bit about business transformation. Welcome.
Mark Shank: Awesome. Thank you.
Mike Wolf: Thank you.
Mark Shank: We're really glad to be here.
Jayne Groll: So, you know, before we went on camera, we talked a little bit about KPMG's service compared to tool relationship to an event like this, and certainly looking at transformation, which is the theme of the conference. But business transformation, I think, is trending as high as tool transformation. So what are you seeing in the conference? What are you hoping to get out of the conference? What are some of the conversations you've had so far?
Mark Shank: Well, I think the conference is great. There are a lot of really awesome tool vendors here, and DevOps is a complex ecosystem, which certainly has its challenges in regards to figuring out what the best tool chain means. I think we're starting to see organizations that go beyond, or certainly realize the implications of having a tool chain, and what does that mean to their organization as a whole? What does that mean to the process, the different groups and how they interact, how do they align? You know, product versus project in these kind of components. And so it's been good to start to have these conversations as to what transformation really means. What does transformation mean beyond tooling and what are the implications of that tooling being used successfully?
Mike Wolf: We see this as a component of a broader ecosystem that we call modern delivery. Modern delivery is tying together DevOps, it's tying together Agile, it's tying together what I've been calling Opsifying of everything. AI ops, Designs ops, to organizational relationships towards being product and customer centric to lean financing. To drive that whole business transformation, where DevOps is really the engine, that’s really the broader transformation. And just seeing the kind of energy here, where there's this Nexus point of where people are realizing, “This is bigger, is bigger than Jenkins”. So their decision to go DevOps world, as opposed to Jenkins world in the past, is really a statement about that.
Jayne Groll: It shows a paradigm shift, doesn't it?
Mike Wolf: Yep.
Jayne Groll: And I know that KPMG gets the opportunity and the access to some really key leaders from the enterprise space. So from the executive suite, what are they looking for? What trends are you seeing from the business transformation perspective? And what are they hoping to achieve from this?
Mike Wolf: The shift that I've noticed recently, is this understanding that this is a systemic change, that this is a tectonic change. We had people talk about design thinking previously, now they understand design thinking. We have things like SRE, where they're defining metrics around error budgets and SLOs and SLIs, and then we have the business going, “Well here's my OKR.” How does this come together? I think there's this real understanding and this tipping point that's happening, that says "Oh, this is how I have to change, and I need to get executive alignment to actually push that forward and have real actionable change."
Mark Shank: One thing we've seen in that vein, fundamentally the DevOps has helped organizations realize the failings of their Agile transformations. That they have all these middle level executives with Agile score cards, and they're all green. And if you go to lunch with anybody in their group, they're gonna complain about problems with their Agile transformation. But when you try to put automation in place and you try to put a tool chain in place, it really shows all these glaring issues. And so to a degree, you're kind of helping them take a step back and realize where they maybe had trouble with Agile or did Agile wrong. This is helping bring so much of that to light. So you're kinda dealing with a little bit of Agile debt, so to speak, and then also helping them move forward into this new space.
Mark Shank: You can see how this breaks down some of the traditional silos, particularly on the IT side. So much of IT orgs were built up around the actual structure of the things that they were owning and implementing, and now that that structure with cloud and with automation and with these other things is getting broken down, there are egos at play. There are people there that are really thinking about how this impacts them, and their, group, and so it requires strong, high-level executive leadership to have this change occur across a horizontal in the business.
Jayne Groll: From my experience, what organizations are learning, is that it's more important to be Agile than to do Agile. Right? They thought that doing Agile was going to be the magic bullet, the secret sauce, and they found out it that could only take them so far. Same with other things. Same with IT sen service management, same thing with lean -- flow really is the important part of that.
Mike Wolf: To that end, I think that the Dev and Operation side is realizing that tools do not solve that same problem, just like going Agile, implementing CICD, didn't solve that problem. Because, at the end of the day, I released a thing faster, but it wasn't the thing that the business wanted. Business is still unhappy because I wanted the thing I wanted. Right? So we're shifting left through all this automation, they're realizing "how do we fix this problem?" And that then is bringing together the teams to really break down the silos to achieve that.
Mark Shank: You can see different levels of maturity in regards to where people are in the problems that they deal with. You can see groups that have maybe most of the tool chain implemented, and then they start focusing on actual design thinking and how to engage the business, and how is the business really engaged in an Agile way? How are they doing budgets in an Agile way? Whereas you know when you go to a slightly less mature step, they're starting to figure out how to try to align operation, IT, traditional IT operations team towards product-- and how to break down security, and automate some of the security functions and change the culture around that. And so, as you go down this path, you see different challenges, and it's hard to even see what's ahead because you haven't lived or experienced that yet.
Mike Wolf: The other shift I'm seeing there as you're talking about breaking down silos, all of a sudden the chief financial officer wants to be involved in this because they're like "Well, how do I pay for this? Is this budgeted in the same way? Am I still doing my annual budgets? I've heard this thing about lean finance? Oh, by the way, I need to do vendor management. Can DevOps help me in-source some of this work that I was using for vendors and pick the vendors and have extended workforce?" That's a maturity level that we were not seeing just a year ago.
Jayne Groll: And it's exciting.
Mike Wolf: Yeah.
Jayne Groll: I mean it's incredibly exciting, starting to see the C-suite get engaged. But it's from the ground up and the top down, and they're kinda meeting in the middle, which is fantastic, right?
Mike Wolf: Yeah, it really is.
Jayne Groll: So, anything you guys want to announce while you're here? Anything in particular that KPMG is doing or is looking forward to say for next quarter or even for next year?
Mike Wolf: We're actually doubling down on this in this industry and putting a focus on what we're calling modern delivery, which is an end-to-end service offering that ties together our risk consulting, cyber, and our digital enablement to be able to design and build out those prototypes and cloud native apps. Our CIO Advisory work, where we're advising CIOs on the future of IT, and our People & Change initiatives to how do you implement that big cultural change into one service offering we're calling modern delivery? We're going to be talking about a lot in the market over the next year.
Mark Shank: Yeah, really trying to bring together governance, change management, the actual technical implementation, and the operating model and how all of these things can work together to help you realize the benefit of this.
Jayne Groll: And that's DevOps. Right?
Mike Wolf: It is.
Mark Shank: Exactly.
Jayne Groll: That is DevOps, so that's really very exciting. I hope the people that are at DevOps World Jenkins World, (hopefully by next year we're using one name, right?) will come by your booth to learn more about it. I've really enjoyed spending some time with you. So thank you.
Mark Shank: Awesome. Thank you for your time.
Mike Wolf: Thank you so much.
Jayne Groll: This is Jayne Groll, CEO of the DevOps Institute. I've been with Mark and Mike from KPMG, and wishing everyone a great conference.